The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. Lexipol. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. ammo. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. Not aim shoot. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. What will each round acco. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. When they enter the body, they spread out into a star-shaped pattern that enhances the damage caused by the wound channel. Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. Opinions all ! When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. Anyway great comments to all. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. It stood there looking at me. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. Reality. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. A 9mm round fired at close range to the skull with the correct ammunition will be fatal nearly all the time. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. Train, train train and when your done. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. The story makes that even sound too few. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. But I agree, I would LOVE to see more true American companies represented!! I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. If you like and are comfortable with what you shot, then you will carry what you like. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . Wouldnt waste my money on it. That meant that the tip didnt just bore straight through him, but rather that the whole length of the projectile rotated over and over through Scalises body, ripping a wider hole and distributing a bigger shock wave throughout his bones and tissue. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. Practice is key. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Lee reloading gear. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. and departments. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. Guns dont kill people. Theres been many people shot and continue. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. The double stack G19 is thicker. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 450 ft/s will make a hole in, but not penetrate 4" plate glass. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. WebYes, definitely. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. Nobody I know whos been in the service liked the M9. So dont ask. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Copyright 2023 Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. SEMPER FI. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. Now that you know where I am coming from. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. Practice while on the move. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. More damage with one shot. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. laugh at the forensic expert and 2.) He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. The reason is recoil. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. Were investigating how it spends its money. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. We look forward to serving you. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. Thats right George. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. Practice thats all it takes. Sound familiar?? 45 guy and .357 mag lover . How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Theres also the reaction of a surprise. From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. Millenials and their bias arguments. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. Witnessed it first hand. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. So they fudge the data. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. Then get ready for a gunfight. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. And Im not always concerned with concealing. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. 9mm beats .45acp. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. And they call themselves a forensics expert.. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. All rights reserved. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. It doesnt get more damaging that that. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. this was the part I couldn't wait to get to and dissect. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. Id use either! Thats what I pack in the deep woods. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that Handgun cartridges just dont do that. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. Ask deerhunters. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. Copyright 2023 The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. Damage: 22 per pellet. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. After reading your article, I had to 1.) I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. So that is where the saying and belief came from. I shot Master for a while. 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. I like them all! Maybe Obamas army should be issued paint ball guns so there is a non-lethal component too. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. THAT shot better make a change. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. CHEERS. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. So banter on gentlemen. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. Cool story for real. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. George. JP-Thank you for your real life documentation. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target.
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